WWI era 1911 refinishing project

[terraformer]

That got your attention... :wink:
So, before we start, I purchased this gun for $300 and the historical value had already been destroyed many, many years ago. Apparently, someone wanted Patton's pearl handles and nickel finished this gun and put fake ivory plastic handles on it.
Here is what it looked like when I bought it.

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85&d=1259726088

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86&d=1259726122

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87&d=1259726147

You will notice the chipping of the nickel finish and the general overall condition of the finish is poor at best. I shot the gun and it runs fine. Accurate as I would expect from the gun as well.

The serial number is a colt US Govt 276xxx which denotes a 1918 mfg and was a std issue to the Army. So it was originally blued in 1918. The inspector cartouche was J.M. Gilbert which is found on Colt 1911s from 1917 to 1918 SN 230,001 to 302,000. The Property of the US Government stamp was filled and polished over which is common with mid century refinishing of former US army 1911.

So, tonight I stripped it down.

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88&d=1259726258

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89&d=1259726268

In the shop I knew that nickel can be stripped. So I jumped at the chance to purchase this.

The four parts on the blue shop towel are the ones that will get refinished. I have not decided what type of finish yet. I am up for suggestions but the obvious options are some sort of parkerized finish, electroless nickel, or ceracote.

My only concern is featured in this last pic. You will note the top screw well in the frame has popped out. I will have to have this fixed before getting it refinished. I am hoping it is "fixable" given these are not welded like in modern 1911s but staked. The screw well is stripped but the threads in the frame are savable. My concern is where I will find a replacement screw well...

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90&stc=1&d=1259726739

I will post more as it comes.

[Danube]

Wow that looks great and for the price it looks like gold. Good luck with the refinish, if its functional it should work well.

[Clinotus]

$300? Take me shopping with you next time. :clap:

[Miso Beno]

I'm just going to leave this photo right here.

http://ruserio.us/images/1/old1911yay.jpg

Id also like to point out that the lettering on your Colt is surprisingly sharp for a refinish job. You may want to consider having it blued instead of parkerized, so you can have the safety, barrel, trigger, etc. match the rest of the gun. If you decide to stick with the parkerized route, then I recommend leaving the parts that retain their original bluing alone.

[Clinotus]

Did someone say parkerize? (http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=25131&highlight=parkerize)

[terraformer]

I'm just going to leave this photo right here.

http://ruserio.us/images/1/old1911yay.jpg

Id also like to point out that the lettering on your Colt is surprisingly sharp for a refinish job. You may want to consider having it blued instead of parkerized, so you can have the safety, barrel, trigger, etc. match the rest of the gun. If you decide to stick with the parkerized route, then I recommend leaving the parts that retain their original bluing alone.

Now that's a collectors item. This is a project gun. One thing to note, I am not trying to refurb this back to a collectors piece or somehow make it show worthy. I would buy a blued 1911 and stuff it in a display box if I wanted that. I want to be able to carry and occasionally shoot this one. I want to bring it back to life if you will.

I too am happy with how much detail is still there. The cartouche and the prancing horse are still there which is nice.

I am having a bear of a time trying to decide with a bluing, a parkerizing/coating or just redoing the nickel with electroless nickel after stripping it. My issue is getting a consistent look. As you will see in the pic above, there is bluing on the mag release, the safety and just about every part other than the slide, the backstrap, the frame and the front bushing. All of the pins are blued and you can see it in the pics.

Now, if I go with nickel again or anything other than bluing I will need to coat those bits as well. I can blue the gun and it will then match the other bits. Any type of ceracote/parkerizing will fill in the gaps and probably cover over the monogram and the prancing horse.

So I think my only two choices are bluing and electroless nickel. Can I nickel coat the various small parts and the barrel to make it all work? Any pros and cons between the two? Am I missing an option?

[terraformer]

Researching this further and based on everyone's feedback, I believe this (http://www.m1911.org/prodte29.htm) is a faithful representation of what this looked like originally. It's a beautiful finish but I don't believe I would ever be able to get that back given the refinishing this has already been through. Thoughts?

[terraformer]

A little update. I am bringing it to a smith to look over the grip bushing issues. It may not require oversized bushings. Also, he thinks it may be blue-able and will strip it and see. If not, he suggests hard chrome over electroless nickel.

[Fang]

A little update. I am bringing it to a smith to look over the grip bushing issues. It may not require oversized bushings. Also, he thinks it may be blue-able and will strip it and see. If not, he suggests hard chrome over electroless nickel.

If you want an authentic finish restoration performed, you could always have Doug Turnbull (http://www.turnbullrestoration.com) take a look at your gun. It won't be cheap, but his work is beautiful and period-correct.

[terraformer]

If you want an authentic finish restoration performed, you could always have Doug Turnbull (http://www.turnbullrestoration.com) take a look at your gun. It won't be cheap, but his work is beautiful and period-correct.

The guy I am having look it over is Greg Derr (http://www.derrprecision.com/) who is a local smith. He does excellent work. He has two refinishers he uses and the work on his site will speak to how good one or both of them is. I am sure turnbull is also excellent and I will make sure to compare what they do with his usual finishers. I am sure he would also not mind sending the parts to them either.

I debated calling colt and asking for them to do it. They are apparently set up for restoring 1911s with the original hot gas bluing done on the first ten years of 1911s as a result of their vintage colt reproductions (see the link above) and the results are stunning.

Right now, Greg will strip it and we will see if the metal is not in any way marred. If it is, it may not be blue-able. Lots of unknowns on this until we get that nickel off. Exciting for me too. I am sure you all see this as paint drying until the finished product comes out... :sleeping:

:grin:

[terraformer]

If you want an authentic finish restoration performed, you could always have Doug Turnbull (http://www.turnbullrestoration.com) take a look at your gun. It won't be cheap, but his work is beautiful and period-correct.

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/store.asp?pid=20533
hmmmm.... That looks nice.... :grin:

[Miso Beno]

I wouldn't let your gunsmith hardchrome your gun, and make sure your gun doesn't come within 20' of a buffing wheel. It's survived this long with it's markings in tact, lets prevent any further damage.

[terraformer]

I wouldn't let your gunsmith hardchrome your gun, and make sure your gun doesn't come within 20' of a buffing wheel. It's survived this long with it's markings in tact, lets prevent any further damage.

I am hoping it can be blued. Is hard chroming not reversible?

[Miso Beno]

I am hoping it can be blued. Is hard chroming not reversible?

It's just ugly and 100% wrong for this gun.

[Cyrano 4747]

You really, REALLY shouldn't let the smith who's going to be refinishing that do anything to the surface such as blasting, buffing, or anything else that is going to remove material. Those markings are really great looking and aggressive refinishing tends to really scrub them off. A quick browse through gunbroker will show all manner of old pistols with "faded" looking markings that have been screwed over by the buffing wheel.

If you get it hard chromed my understanding is that it will need to be buffed really, really smooth. As I understand it the chrome process tends to pick out any imperfections in the material, such that you can end up with jagged lumps if it isn't smooth. Miso or anyone else who knows more about this kind of thing, please correct me.

You're wrong when you say that your gun has lost all of its collector's value. Once you get that nasty finish off it you can easily get it semi-collectable again with a simple period correct refinish. It will never be a $1200 piece, but as a "shooter grade" example of a late WW1 colt for a collection? With a decent blue job that would be a $600 pistol, easy. A lot of collectors keep "less desirable" examples of guns around so that they have something to shoot the hell out of.

I really, really have to vote blue on this one. It's the easiest finish to get without screwing up the existing markings on there.

Also, if you want a gun you can carry, stay the FUCK away from an actual USGI 1911. I'm sure that there are people who do it, but you're really carrying a demonstrably inferior gun to any modern 1911. The biggest deal is the sights - unless you machine out your slide for dovetails (don't do this) you're stuck with the small USGI sights. If you want to carry a 1911 get any one of the decent modern production ones manufactured with dovetails for modern sights. I've also read here and there about early 1911s not liking to feed JHP rounds, but I've never tested this myself so it's hard to say.

You've got a great gun there, but you should really think about what you want to do with it. It would be a real shame to wreck what's left of that gun's history with a botched restoration job.

[Miso Beno]

If you get the gun media blasted, try to get it glass bead blasted instead of aluminum oxide blasted. The glass bead is much less aggressive and wont damage the marking nearly as much as an aluminum oxide blast, but it will take longer to perform and will probably cost you a few more bucks to have done

(And if you just want to ditch the gun for a carry piece Im sure we could work out some cash or a trade)

[Cyrano 4747]

If you get the gun media blasted, try to get it glass bead blasted instead of aluminum oxide blasted. The glass bead is much less aggressive and wont damage the marking nearly as much as an aluminum oxide blast, but it will take longer to perform and will probably cost you a few more bucks to have done

(And if you just want to ditch the gun for a carry piece Im sure we could work out some cash or a trade)

Note that most gunsmiths use the aluminum oxide method. You should specifically ask about that.

[Miso Beno]

Note that most gunsmiths use the aluminum oxide method. You should specifically ask about that.


Good point. Most smiths use aluminum oxide because its fast and you wont notice any erosion of your markings on a gun with good solid markings. Unfortunately, this gun is already loaded with light stampings which will fade out even more during the blasting process. That said, blasting is still preferred to buffing.

As for chroming, a good hard chrome is very thick and will build out every surface feature on the gun which can lead to sharp points and a strange looking finish if the surface isn't properly prepared.

[Cyrano 4747]

Good point. Most smiths use aluminum oxide because its fast and you wont notice any erosion of your markings on a gun with good solid markings. Unfortunately, this gun is already loaded with light stampings which will fade out even more during the blasting process. That said, blasting is still preferred to buffing.


I just want to point out that almost all military markings on firearms are very light compared to what you see on civilian firearms.

You see Lugers, P38s, 1911s, and other milsurp pistols all the time with markings so faded you can barely read them, usually due to a refinish in their history.

[Ygolonac]

Also, if you want a gun you can carry, stay the FUCK away from an actual USGI 1911. I'm sure that there are people who do it, but you're really carrying a demonstrably inferior gun to any modern 1911. The biggest deal is the sights - unless you machine out your slide for dovetails (don't do this) you're stuck with the small USGI sights. If you want to carry a 1911 get any one of the decent modern production ones manufactured with dovetails for modern sights. I've also read here and there about early 1911s not liking to feed JHP rounds, but I've never tested this myself so it's hard to say.


There are some better sights that can be installed in the original dovetail (rear) and tenon (front) mounts - I've seen a beautiful Ted Yost "retro" fixed-sight set that is only slightly larger than the original GI parts, yet has an actual decent front blade/rear slot. (It used to be at Yost-Bonitz, but Yost left a while back, and I'm not sure what the status of it all is currently.)

If you're willing to modify, that opens up a hell of a lot more options...but then again, it won't be GI.

Fun fact - my "GI style" RIA sights are still better than the original 1911/1911A1 bits. And that's *scary*.

[terraformer]

So, a little update. The gun is at the refinishers getting blued. At least it was a few weeks ago. I hope to have it back within the next month.

PS: I like low profile sights.

[Cyrano 4747]

So, a little update. The gun is at the refinishers getting blued. At least it was a few weeks ago. I hope to have it back within the next month.

PS: I like low profile sights.

What sort of media blast did you end up using?

[terraformer]

What sort of media blast did you end up using?

I will have to ask, but I believe it would have been glass at worst. I know he said he was not going to use anything terribly destructive. And frankly, after the acid bath to remove the nickel, I doubt it needed much more.

[terraformer]

Update:

It comes in on Saturday! Woo Hoo! It supposedly looks great. I just ordered walnut grips so it will be 98% original sans the grips.
These grips: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=839330

:biggrin: :comeandgetsome:

[terraformer]

Pics are online
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/91987-Back-from-the-Dead

[Miso Beno]

That's fan-freaking-tastic!

[Fang]

Yeah, that looks really good. I wasn't expecting it to be that nice.

[terraformer]

Thanks guys. It will have new grips, faithful repros, that will make it even nicer. There is just something wrong about those colt ones he put on.

Is it saturday yet? :)

Oh, and I got an original looped colt magazine two tone to put in it. The mag is either is mint condition or was refinished but who cares, it would be a nice period specific addition.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=156163364

[Miso Beno]

What did they charge you for the restoration job?

[terraformer]

What did they charge you for the restoration job?

He hasn't answered that email yet...
:thinking2:
I suspect it will be about $400 with the strip, a new barrel, bushing and a few other small pieces.

[Clinotus]

Well done.

[Bob La]

Beautiful pistol.

[Danube]

Holy crap that came out georgous. Very nice bring back from the 'dead'. I'm envious over here.

[Longshot]

I had to delurk just to say how awesome that turned out. Glad you didn't try to turn it into a racegun or something.

[Cyrano 4747]

damn, that looks great. You did really well by that gun, I'm really glad to see it came out so well.

[terraformer]

I had to delurk just to say how awesome that turned out. Glad you didn't try to turn it into a racegun or something.

I love the term.

Thanks all for the comments. I will post some more pics with the right grips over the weekend.

[Miso Beno]

You promised PHOOOOTOOSSS.

[Danube]

Updates?

[terraformer]

You promised PHOOOOTOOSSS.

I will get there. I have crappy photos of it with the right grips but no authentic looped mag. I have the mag now. If I have time tomorrow I will take it outside and take decent shots of it.

[terraformer]

http://230grain.com/images/rsrh/WWI_1911_1.jpg (http://230grain.com/images/rsrh/IMG_1246.jpg)


http://230grain.com/images/rsrh/WWI_1911_2.jpg (http://230grain.com/images/rsrh/IMG_1248.jpg)


Here you go. It was raining out and wet so there are rain drops and dew forming on the cold steel, but that is it in the finished form.

BTW: I left them at sufficiently high res so you can see the detail of the prancing horse and the inspectors stamp.

[Fang]

Beautiful.

[Miso Beno]

http://www.pervici.com/files/IMG_1246.jpg
http://www.pervici.com/files/IMG_1248.jpg

Here you go. It was raining out and wet so there are rain drops and dew forming on the cold steel, but that is it in the finished form.

BTW: I left them at sufficiently high res so you can see the detail of the prancing horse and the inspectors stamp.

That is absolutely FANTASTIC. How much are you into the gun now?

[Clinotus]

Outstanding restoration. As I mentioned last week when I saw it in the flesh its beautiful.

I rehosted the images for you, hope you dont mind the edit.

[terraformer]

Outstanding restoration. As I mentioned last week when I saw it in the flesh its beautiful.

I rehosted the images for you, hope you dont mind the edit.

That's fine. I intentionally did not embed them inline because of the size.

[terraformer]

That is absolutely FANTASTIC. How much are you into the gun now?

Not as much as you are apparently... :smartass: :biggrin:

It's great. I love knowing that I can shoot it and just get it refinished when it looks like crap again. The trigger sucks but that was what they were like back then. If I didn't live in MA I would lay it out on occasion but that's not kosher here. A mythical 5 yro would possibly pick it up and try to shoot themselves with imaginary bullets.

[Miso Beno]

Not as much as you are apparently... :smartass: :biggrin:

It's great. I love knowing that I can shoot it and just get it refinished when it looks like crap again. The trigger sucks but that was what they were like back then. If I didn't live in MA I would lay it out on occasion but that's not kosher here. A mythical 5 yro would possibly pick it up and try to shoot themselves with imaginary bullets.

I wouldn't get it refinished again because you'll lose the markings, the fact that it came out looking fine this time is one thing, but every refinish still changes tolerances and you'll notice the little pony will disappear a little more every time, and your letters will look less and less sharp. I'd probably avoid shooting the tar out of partially because its still a collectible handgun, and partially because the steel from handguns of that generation was a bit softer than modern steel so it will wear out faster (frame rails will go loose, lockup will get sloppy, this is why Israeli military[Tz] replacement G.I. slides for 1911s were way tight.)

[terraformer]

I wouldn't get it refinished again because you'll lose the markings, the fact that it came out looking fine this time is one thing, but every refinish still changes tolerances and you'll notice the little pony will disappear a little more every time, and your letters will look less and less sharp. I'd probably avoid shooting the tar out of partially because its still a collectible handgun, and partially because the steel from handguns of that generation was a bit softer than modern steel so it will wear out faster (frame rails will go loose, lockup will get sloppy, this is why Israeli military[Tz] replacement G.I. slides for 1911s were way tight.)

Why would chemically stripping the bluing make it lose steel? I thought when you strip bluing you are stripping the blue, not the steel.

[Miso Beno]

Why would chemically stripping the bluing make it lose steel? I thought when you strip bluing you are stripping the blue, not the steel.

Everytime the gun is blued some of the surface steel is converted into rust, and when you chemically strip that rust, and then adding new bluing you're eroding the details of your gun away. It's a hell of a lot better than hitting it with a buffing wheel or media blaster but it's still doing damage to the gun.

[Cyrano 4747]

Not as much as you are apparently... :smartass: :biggrin:

It's great. I love knowing that I can shoot it and just get it refinished when it looks like crap again. The trigger sucks but that was what they were like back then. If I didn't live in MA I would lay it out on occasion but that's not kosher here. A mythical 5 yro would possibly pick it up and try to shoot themselves with imaginary bullets.

Why do you say the trigger sucks? What's it feeling like?

My father in law has a WW2 production 1911 that has one of the smoothest, crispest, all around nicest SA triggers I've ever felt in any gun. It puts a lot of the modern 1911s I've handled to shame, and just steals the lunch money of most other guns.

[terraformer]

Why do you say the trigger sucks? What's it feeling like?

My father in law has a WW2 production 1911 that has one of the smoothest, crispest, all around nicest SA triggers I've ever felt in any gun. It puts a lot of the modern 1911s I've handled to shame, and just steals the lunch money of most other guns.

Its real crunchy. I need to get the lyman on it but it is probably 15 lbs.

[Danube]

The period grips on that gun plus the restoration would make would it a museum/shadow box piece in my house.



So.....you thinking of selling? :tongue: