The 230 round(table): Weapon lights.

[Clinotus]

Every once in a while the staff here argues heatedly in the back room. Sometimes over who didn't make coffee after taking the last cup, other times over firearms issues.

This months discussion at the round table will focus on weapon mounted lights.

The rules and the objectives are simple; We will argue separate sides of an issue and attempt to convince the other party of the error of their ways or in the least comfortably accept some measures of the opposing viewpoint.

The electronic coin toss has placed Fang for, myself, against.

Everyone, however is encouraged to contribute...after all this is a roundtable.

[Clinotus]

I believe that weapons lights have no place on defensive firearms. At the most basic level they violate two of the most basic firearm laws of operation. The first being that you should never point your muzzle at something that you are not willing to destroy, and the second yet possibly most important: know your target and what is beyond.

[Fang]

Here are my thoughts.

First, for the longest time I considered weaponlights as a de rigeur attachment to any "serious" weapon to be silly. Their most useful role seemed (and still seems) to be finding one's way around an unfamiliar area in the dark, while armed and with a weapon at the ready, without having to juggle a flashlight. For home defense purposes, most of these factors are irrelevant: You know your way around, you know where the light switches are, and your goal should be to secure family and hunker down, not slice the pie and throw flashbangs.

The primary arguments for weaponlights never seemed to hold much water. The commonly-accepted strategy, I was told, was to silently sneak through the darkness, avoiding flipping of light switches to preserve night vision. When you crept up on an unaware tango, you'd illuminate him with your primary weapon system white light platform long enough to confirm that it was not someone you minded shooting, and then shoot him.

My problems with this scenario were numerous. First, I can't silently slip through my house like a wraith or tactininja. Floors creak, doors squeak, and my footsteps have more in common with the majestic wildebeast than the stealthy puma. More relevantly, if someone is in my house I don't want to sneak up on him; I want him to know someone is coming so that he can get out of there. If he's the sort to detect an incoming homeowner and lie in wait, then he could do that every bit as well in the dark. As for sacrificing precious night vision by flipping the light switch, winking on a 200-lumen flashlight in a dark room isn't that great for sensitive eyes, either. Finally, pointing one's gun at something in order to identify it doesn't seem very safe.

However, there are a couple points that introduce some sanity into the exceedingly THE TACTICAL viewpoint above. There's the possibility of a power outage forcing flashlight use, but this is too remote to be entirely convincing. A better counter-argument is the fact that not every light switch in one's house is guaranteed to be within easy reach. There's also the fact that no matter how light-adjusted one's eyes are, the person looking into the bright flashlight will be at a disadvantage to someone behind said flashlight. Finally, you're not forced to point the gun at someone to identify: Your average CDI-grade flashlight has enough horsepower to make visible almost everything in a room even when pointed at the ground.

So my conclusion has swung around to seeing weaponlights on home defense weapons as potentially useful in some situations, but not a necessity.

Edit: I am informed that I am being entirely too moderate, so I will summarize my point thusly: If you don't put a light on your gun, you should just keep it locked in the safe. Every fighting gun needs a light, because that's the only way to control the illumination level of your particular engagement. We have the technology to turn darkness into day, so not using it simply due to a lack of imagination of how it can be safely employed is putting yourself and those who rely on your protection at risk.

[terraformer]

Every once in a while the staff here argues heatedly in the back room. Sometimes over who didn't make coffee after taking the last cup, other times over firearms issues.

This months discussion at the round table will focus on weapon mounted lights.

The rules and the objectives are simple; We will argue separate sides of an issue and attempt to convince the other party of the error of their ways or in the least comfortably accept some measures of the opposing viewpoint.

The electronic coin toss has placed Fang for, myself, against.

Everyone, however is encouraged to contribute...after all this is a roundtable.



Does this include lasers???

[Fang]

Does this include lasers???

I think we could cover that in a different subject, as my feelings on lasers are much different than lights.

[Clinotus]

As my colleague alluded there is a certain appeal to the fantasy of utilizing a weapons light in the defense of ones own domain, that is, should one hear a bump in the night and ascertain that it bears further investigation and further to that, armed investigation, one should certainly have the means to counteract the first enemy in the situation, being, the darkness.

Of course one will need to have some means of vanquishing the darkness in order to fully observe or command as much control as possible in the operational environment. However in doing so one begins to subtlety adhere to the one of the primary firearms rules which is to know your target and what is beyond, meaning that one fully observes what one will or may be shooting at. It bears a significant relation to situational awareness simply because that is what it is.

You light the area as needed in order to operate in that environment. We could go so far as to state that in this scenario the light is the first weapon in defense and by controlling it you can effectively control certain aspects of the unfolding situation, such as overbearing the environment with bright or blinding light or denying the area of light and keeping it in the darkness which in your own home can work to your advantage.

With a weapon light the focus is on a small target. Yet concentrating on such a small segment of the potential target without regard for the rest of the environment may place the responder into a focused sense of tunnel vision, which is the one of the deadliest follies for an active shooter, who upon hearing another bump or other such external stimulus may engage in sympathetic reactive shooting.

Heady enough to realize I may have given too much in this portion of the debate, I ask instead, why tether the two systems together? Is there a real benefit outside of the illumination of a potential target for which you may or may not be aware of?

So far I see none.

[Clinotus]

Does this include lasers???


I think we could cover that in a different subject, as my feelings on lasers are much different than lights.

Same.

[Fang]

As my colleague alluded there is a certain appeal to the fantasy of utilizing a weapons light in the defense of ones own domain, that is, should one hear a bump in the night and ascertain that it bears further investigation and further to that, armed investigation, one should certainly have the means to counteract the first enemy in the situation, being, the darkness.

Of course one will need to have some means of vanquishing the darkness in order to fully observe or command as much control as possible in the operational environment. However in doing so one begins to subtlety adhere to the one of the primary firearms rules which is to know your target and what is beyond, meaning that one fully observes what one will or may be shooting at. It bears a significant relation to situational awareness simply because that is what it is.

You light the area as needed in order to operate in that environment. We could go so far as to state that in this scenario the light is the first weapon in defense and by controlling it you can effectively control certain aspects of the unfolding situation, such as overbearing the environment with bright or blinding light or denying the area of light and keeping it in the darkness which in your own home can work to your advantage.

With a weapon light the focus is on a small target. Yet concentrating on such a small segment of the potential target without regard for the rest of the environment may place the responder into a focused sense of tunnel vision, which is the one of the deadliest follies for an active shooter, who upon hearing another bump or other such external stimulus may engage in sympathetic reactive shooting.

Heady enough to realize I may have given too much in this portion of the debate, I ask instead, why tether the two systems together? Is there a real benefit outside of the illumination of a potential target for which you may or may not be aware of?

So far I see none.

As an alternative to not seeing anything, even a degree of tunnel vision produced by a flashlight is preferable. It's not like powerful flashlights restrict their light that much, either; all of my CR123-powered lights project a 20-foot diameter circle of light at across-the-room distances. It's worth noting that Jeff Cooper shared your concern with lights, as he found that people with mounted lights on pistols who shot at targets at close range tended to instinctively use the light spot for aiming. It doesn't carry across to rifles or shotguns as much, though, where the light can be used for momentary illumination.

As for tethering the two, there's a lot less reason to do so for handguns than longarms. With the latter, if you want a flashlight it kind of needs to be attached to avoid having to juggle both flashlight and firearm.

[terraformer]

Same.

Just checking since clinotus has had my M6X on his home defense airsoft MP5 since last year, I was curious if we were covering lasers too... :smartass: :tongue:

[mbquimby]

I believe that weapons lights have no place on defensive firearms. At the most basic level they violate two of the most basic firearm laws of operation. The first being that you should never point your muzzle at something that you are not willing to destroy, and the second yet possibly most important: know your target and what is beyond.

Pardon me while I answer this debate with the only logical conclusion...

In a self defense situation where you are armed, you may be willing to destroy someone but find it not necessary. In this situation having the option of a high powered flashlight is advantageous.

Example: I hear my car door shut in the middle of the night. I grab the shot gun and walk to the front door and peek out. There is a dude laying across my front seat. I walk back through the house (quickly) and tell my wife to call the cops as I go out the back door and around the house. Quietly, I walk around the corner of my house with the gun already in my shoulder and aimed in on Mr. Badguy. I yell an obscenity in conjunction with concise directions to remove himself from my vehicle and place himself on the ground. With my off trigger hand, at the same time I break the silence, I turn on my 135 lumen LED. With the surprise of my voice, he obviously turns to look at me and instantly his world is full of pretty little floating dots. If he had ran, I wouldn't have shot him over rummaging through my car but I know enough about response times to petty vehicle break-in/theft in my area to know that he'd be long gone before the sheriff was on scene unless I "convinced" him to stick around. Now that he was practically blind, running really wasn't an option for him. Anyone who has tinkered with their high powered LED flashlight and blinded themselves knows just how much of a stun it can be. Also, he could have been armed so if we both started to fire, I would still be able to see my target and all he would see was the light he was about to ride into the afterlife. I understand that many of you will say, "you should have stayed inside and let the cops handle it." I see your point but that's a different debate.

As far as tunnel vision goes, that is a training issue. You have to train yourself to maintain target acquisition while observing forward and peripherally with or without a light. (Hint: If you close your weak eye when aiming you're doing it wrong)

The argument that a flashlight gives away your target is a little weak in my opinion. Sorry Clintotus, you still da man though. Flashlights only turn on with user input. Guns don't shoot themselves and flashlights don't click themselves on either. If the situation dictates that you need to be unseen until you fire, simply don't turn it on. It's all about options. Why limit yourself when there is really no con to having the availability of a light (on a long arm)? I understand that flashlights on pistols can make it harder to holster your weapon. I am making this post under the assumption that we are dealing with home defense since your argument hinges on concealment. If you are mugged at Wal-Mart, concealment isn't an issue.

The bottom line here is that having the OPTION to use a flashlight on a self defense weapon only adds to your ability, it does not detract unless used incorrectly. You don't instantly turn on weapon light and shuffle through a house or your yard "looking for the bad guy". The reality is that a weapon light is part of a system. If you have a gun in your hand you must look at it like piece of a weapon system (because it is, even if you don't treat it as such.) Many things contribute to a weapon system. The gun and all it's parts/set up, the ammo type, the carry type, your training, you, lights, lasers, and what ever else you my use in conjunction with the gun itself. Adding a light adds additional functionality and only adds a small amount of size and weight.

We could go on forever trading examples of situations that seem to defend our stance but you'd indefinitely be trumped in the end. The reason is that with both of us being logical people, we'd have to agree that there are possible self defense situations with details that we couldn't imagine until it was happening to us. You can't perfectly script something as complex as all the potential self defense situations possible because there are too many variables. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'd agree with that. Picture this, you are at your house and I am at mine.....What happens if we both found ourselves in one of those situations and thought, "Damn NOW I wish I had a light." I'd go "click" and you go "shit!".

I have a Leatherman multitool that has served me well for about 4 years. There a couple of tools on it that I have never used. That being said, I don't intend on removing them. You know, just in case. :wink:

[Snarlbuckle]

We could go on forever trading examples of situations that seem to defend our stance but you'd indefinitely be trumped in the end. The reason is that with both of us being logical people, we'd have to agree that there are possible self defense situations with details that we couldn't imagine until it was happening to us. You can't perfectly script something as complex as all the potential self defense situations possible because there are too many variables. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'd agree with that. Picture this, you are at your house and I am at mine.....What happens if we both found ourselves in one of those situations and thought, "Damn NOW I wish I had a light." I'd go "click" and you go "shit!".

I have a Leatherman multitool that has served me well for about 4 years. There a couple of tools on it that I have never used. That being said, I don't intend on removing them. You know, just in case. :wink:

There it is, the core of the debate. A 'tactical' flashlight is a tool, or more accurately an accessory. Just about every accessory falls into the category of "there might just be a time that I need this... maybe." The pitfall is that adding too many of them weighs you down and makes the primary function of the firearm somewhat harder to perform.

Take pocket knives for example. You carry a leatherman, which is a great tool for many different purposes. I carry a lockblade pocket knife. You may be able to do lots of cool stuff with that leatherman, but I would prefer the plain old lockblade in a knife fight. However, if we were comparing pliers instead of knives, the leatherman would almost always trump your average set of pliers because it doesn't loose any significant functionality.

Compare an auto-loading skeet shotgun to an auto-loading home defense shotgun. The skeet gun is designed to hit small flying targets every time with blinding speed. The HD gun has lots of accessories but may not be very useful if you ever try to hit clays with it. If you can hit small flying clays, I'm willing to bet you can hit a big slow BG with ease. The HD gun may compromise weight, balance, or most importantly familiarity via training.

Your weapon system should excel at its primary purpose. Once you identify the threat, you need to be able to hit it faster than it hits you. None of your accessories should detract from the primary purpose of the firearm.

What do I use? A lightweight sling, and I'm considering a shell holder on the stock. I even keep the original 26" barrel because that is what I train with at the skeet range. The sling is not there for HD purposes, but it is light enough that it has no drawbacks. A shell holder would only improve the balance and recoil reduction of the firearm while giving me some ammo options. None of it compromises my ability to hit small fast moving targets. I have no doubt that I could hit any human sized target even on the longest stretch of my property (30 yards max) within a second of deciding to shoot.

The choice of whether or not to mount a flashlight is up to personal preference. I am a minimalist, so I prefer to spend that money on ammunition for training instead.

[Clinotus]

Good points all around.




The rules and the objectives are simple; We will argue separate sides of an issue and attempt to convince the other party of the error of their ways or in the least comfortably accept some measures of the opposing viewpoint.




As sole member of the against party: Accepted.

[Bob La]

This is an especially nice Swiss Army knife, what is that tool 37th from the left?

http://230grain.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1272327487

[Miso Beno]

Stuff about a shotgun

I really hope you're using buck or slug and not skeet loads for home defense.